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I've been reading the golden dawn and basic qabalah books for a while now, and recently i started looking at Crowley's LEsser key of solomon. I have a few questions regarding the nature of the conjurations. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
1. I've heard alot of people talk about setting ceremonial dates, as to call forth the entities in their proper "house" or degree of zodiac. I am confused as to whether these are specific days, or Zodiac signs attributed to the demon's element. If the demon I wish to evoke is of air, is any time within the zodiac of Aquarius, Libra, Gemini? etc. If not, how do I find the specific day?
2. I know for the most part evoking is external and crowley talks about physical incarnations of these demons, but I've heard some people say the images are just symbolic of their nature. Yet I have I also heard people talking about SEEING these demons, having EXTERNAL conversations with them. I believe magick is subconcious affecting at will, so are these things REALLY incarnating physically? Have you ever SEEN one, not with your third eye, but personally felt the breath of the demon?
3. What is the difference between the 72 demons and the 2nd goetia book containing the Aerial spirits?
1. I've heard alot of people talk about setting ceremonial dates, as to call forth the entities in their proper "house" or degree of zodiac. I am confused as to whether these are specific days, or Zodiac signs attributed to the demon's element. If the demon I wish to evoke is of air, is any time within the zodiac of Aquarius, Libra, Gemini? etc. If not, how do I find the specific day?
2. I know for the most part evoking is external and crowley talks about physical incarnations of these demons, but I've heard some people say the images are just symbolic of their nature. Yet I have I also heard people talking about SEEING these demons, having EXTERNAL conversations with them. I believe magick is subconcious affecting at will, so are these things REALLY incarnating physically? Have you ever SEEN one, not with your third eye, but personally felt the breath of the demon?
3. What is the difference between the 72 demons and the 2nd goetia book containing the Aerial spirits?
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Re: New to Goetia, A few important questions. please help.
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 6:57 PM1st off crowley's goetia sucks and I would not go by it nor anything crowley just my opinion.2nd I have had some personal experiences with a few of these spirits and to me yes they seem very real especially when the poltergeist activity starts thats always fun but they let you know in their own way that they are listening.And why are you tring to call one?Are you triing to do a curse on someone or just call one to see if it works my guess will be the last statement probably.And 3rd if your interested there are many works that will tie into the goetia you just have to find them.A good magician uses their own methods of calling.Design your own circle if you wish the signs and symbols mean nothing actually it just helps the mind to focus on the outcome.Try to order the lesser key by joseph petterson its better than the crowley goetia and petterson uses the exact manuscript from the British museum.The next thing you have to look at is the drawing of the seals sometimes authors will mess up the original so it wont work as good as the accurate seal because if this don't work then you will go elsewere.Who wants to give a manual of demonic summonings in an accurate version anyway?So you have to piece together the puzzle and in the end you will find your own method of calling.I can tell you the crowley version of the circle used is too time consuming and their are other ways.I could set you up with a few manuscripts that would easily work but then were is the fun in searching.If your really interested then it will find you in time just research and google and read and with the appropriate searches it will pay off.I can tell you I spent over $4500 on my library but I have rare editions and books that made my searching fun so don't expect this stuff to be handed to you on a silver platter.And one more word of advice the planetary hours are most important because some of these spirits are circled around certain hours of the night as well as days and as far as an air spirit this is in what direction he is to be called from I will stop here the rest is up to you. -
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Re: New to Goetia, A few important questions. please help.
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 7:06 PMwell thanks, but i still don't have a way to determine the hours. also, i've googled goetia alot and all i can find is the crowley versions in either pdf or shittier html. but thanks I'll try to search harder and find the book you recommend. -
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Re: New to Goetia, A few important questions. please help.
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 8:27 PMThe first time my group called Foras, he was unusually helpful. When someone in the group asked him for a service in an area that he had nothing to do with, he replied politely that the specific request was out of his area of expertise, but then he offered to do something similar that was included in his portfolio and that would have much the same effect as the original request. I thought that was a very fine degree of cooperation for an "evil spirit." In truth, I've always found the Goetic spirits very polite and cooperative. I suspect the church labeled these spirits "evil" back in the Middle Ages and Renaissance, simply because they didn't know how to classify them and fell back on their natural paranoia when confronted with anything they didn't understand.
Foras also remarked on another occasion, just before he was dismissed, "You know, all this set-up is impressive, but you really don't have to go to such lengths. We're a lot easier to summon than most people realize," I don't know how far you should trust his assurances, but he's always been very friendly to our group. I don't know whether demons are actual entities or simply creations of our own unconscious minds, but, in practical terms, it doesn't seem to matter. I forget who said it, but some sage once advised, "I think all such spirits are probably real, but that it's safer to think of them them as though they are imaginary."
As to the planetary hours, I used to use the tables in Dell's Astronomy magazine, but I haven't seen it lately and I'm not sure if it's still being published. If you can find it, it will give the planetary hours for most northern latitudes and a set of twelve monthly tables for each year is sufficient, since they don't change from year to year.
In any case, I think it is important to note the quarter in which the spirit usually manifests. The very first attempt we made in our local group, we got no response, but afterward one of our team claimed he "saw" a humanoid shape walking up and down on the north side of the circle, saying, "Where is the triangle?" So we checked and discovered that although we had placed the triangle of art in the east as the default position, it should have been in the north to welcome that particular demon.
In general, I find that if you treat the demon with reasonable courtesy, they are quite easy to get along with. Arrogant behavior from the exorcist will make them hostile. So firm, but fair is your best course.
I hope this will be helpful. If you have any more questions on details, I will be happy to answer any I can.
With love under will,
Bob, Adastra,
The Wizzard of Jacksonville -
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Re: New to Goetia, A few important questions. please help.
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 2:30 AMInteresting experience.I have never found any of these spirits evil myself but I did find a book written in 1603 that gives the zodiac and the month for each 72 demons and the planetary hours I have a website for that on my homepage.I find the magickal experience mind blowing sometimes because what we see and experience.Like one secret I got from a goetic experience by marchosias was very interesting.Basicly what I was shown through skrying the aethyrs but differently than the enochian way one secret shown to me was revealing who the devil is.I am still researching what was shown to me but if what I saw was right :) it raises alot of questions because the one in life we seek in church and pray to as a GOD is really the fallen one this is a secret all in itself and one yet to be opened fully.Most things in life are right infront of us the whole time but if we do not know how to look then we will miss it everytime.I can tell you this if people really knew who the prince of darkness was it would smash the very foundation of the church its something I'm treading on lightly but so far by what I have found its most interesting because when we view the story for what it is it opens something else that when understanding it it opens up something beyond words or comprehension.The goetic spirits to me once they manifest they look real as if you see another person standing in the room.I never see them as ghostly or just outlines.But knowing what zodiac sign their under does help though.I have a copy of the Grimorium Verum written in 1603 and its a very good copy as to whats out there so far.The other authors mess up alot of the words and take certain words out to try to render the passages worthless.Like I said who wants to give a perfect demonic book to the public
but its fun because I like to dig for information.Its interesting the things you find along the way.In the end of the grimorium is a book called
the "BLACK SERPENT" it gives some other details as to giving the months and zodiac of the demons.Sometimes judging by how the discription of some of the spirits appear this in itself gives enough deatil as to know were they come from north,south exc...... But I will not go into too much detail on this yet. -
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Re: New to Goetia, A few important questions. please help.
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 9:33 PMBut I have an easier way to tell when to call one of these spirits.Study the zodiac well like take marchosias for instance he is of the moon
so monday would be better and to add more to it the sign of the moon is under the zodiac of cancer which the dates of cancer are
June 22-July 22 so anytime between then on a monday in the hour of the moon.In most books about goetic spirits it tells which planet controls them that they are under more on this would be the signs of the zodiac and planetary bull is just to get the right times to call.Do it like that and you should have no problems each sign also signifies which direction to call too Like aries is under mars and the sign for both is fire well which direction is fire on the quarters I will let you figure the rest out but this is just to help. -
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Re: New to Goetia, A few important questions. please help.
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 11:36 PMI have found the "Tarot of Ceremonial Magick" book by Lon Milo DuQuette to be very useful for Goetic work. He lists the Goetic spirits for each decan of the zodiac, two for each span of 10 degrees and gives the dates that the sun is in each decan. He provides one name for the hours of the day and one for those of the night, so thirty-two decans cover all 72 spirits of the Goetia. He also lists each with its number from the Goetia, so it can help you look up the details in the original source.
It's a very useful book for a variety of good information on timing. He also lists the two angels of the Shemhamphorasch for each decan, again totaling to 72, plus astronomical attributions to some of the Enochian spirits. Available from Samuel Weiser, Inc. for $14.95. The deck is also of interest to Tarot readers who are into ceremonial magick.
With love under will,
Bob, Adastra,
]The Wizzard of Jacksonville -
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Re: New to Goetia, A few important questions. please help.
Fri, October 23, 2009 - 6:25 AMhmm sounds interesting I might have to look at that one.I think the information I have been working on is ok and has been working but cross refferencing is good.
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Re: New to Goetia, A few important questions. please help.
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 1:05 PM>>>the one in life we seek in church and pray to as a GOD is really the fallen one<<<
Yes, folks, Satan is indeed alive and well and can be found every Sunday in the pulpit of your local church. In reality, I don't believe in an actual Satan, but his image serves as a useful metaphor for the spirit that pervades most churches. We tend to forget that churches are human organizations that have nothing to do with the Divine at all. Their sole interest is in keeping the butts in the pews and the dollars in th collection plates every Sunday (more often, if possible).
Behold, I tell you a parable (a true parable, but still). Once I was asked to preach sermon at a small New Age style church. After the service, I found and confronted a young man who was busily passing out Christianoid tracts. When I called him out on that, he asked me, point blank, "Do you believe in the literal existence of the devil?"
"No, I don't," said I, "I believe the devil is a personification of all that we think of as evil, but not a literal person."
"Well, then you're not teaching the Bible," he retorted.
"And I'm not at your church passing out propaganda either, am I?" I asked. "Do you see me doing that?"
"Well. . .uh. . . no. . . I guess you aren't:"
Then why are you here doing it at my church?" I demanded. The poor deluded dupe couldn't handle that question and left immediately. Good riddance.!
But later that night, I felt a spiritual "tap on the shoulder" and God asked me, "Remember that 'evangelist" passing out tracts at the service tonight?"
Yes, I do,"
G: "How many people like him have you encountered over the years?
Me: "Oh. . .quite a few I guess."
G: "And how many of them have begun by asking exactly the same question 'Do you believe in Satan? Or 'Do you believe in the existence of a literal hell?' Which is much the same thing?"
Me: "Er, most of them, I think."
G: "Could we say, ALL of them?"
Me: "I suppose we could say that."
G: "Now let Me ask you a question. Who are they working for?"
Me: " Uh. . oh. . .oh, no. . .can't be. . .surely not."
G: "Oh, yes, not who do they pretend they are working for, not even who do they think they're working for, but who are they actually working for? Who do they fear? Whose power do they exalt? Why to listen to them, you would think that if Satan ever gets his claws into you, I am powerless to do anything about it. They think he's greater than Me. They fear Satan more than they fear God."
Me: "Wait a minute. You're using the word 'fear' in two completely distinct senses there. 'Fear' of God is respect; fear of Satan is terror."
G" "You're right, I am, but it makes no difference. The two impulses are completely antithetical. You cannot respect God and fear Satan at the same time. One completely cancels the other."
Me: "Oh, thanks for pointing that out. I never thought about it that way before."
And I can only add that ever since then, I've seen it over and over. God was right; you can't 'fear God' and fear Satan at the same time. Bob, Dylan said it another way, "You got to serve somebody, either the Devil or the Lord" Once you see it, it's obvious how true it is. Whether you believe in a literal God and a literal Satan or not, it's worth noting whether a "preacher, prophet or evangelist" puts his trust in the Divine or spends most of his time warning people about the power of the devil. That tells you who he serves. If he says more about fearing the devil than in telling people that they can trust in God, he is promoting the power of that imaginary hell that is his true employer.
And then God said to me, "Let me answer his question myself. Is there a real hell? Yes, there is, they create it from their own fear. And when their time comes to stand before Me in judgment, it is that fear that will drag them down directly to the hell they have created for themselves, And oh, my son, what a terrible waste it is."
And I swear to you, I have never heard such profound sorrow in any voice as I heard in His that evening.
With love under will,
Bob, Adastra,
The Wizzard of Jacksonville -
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Re: New to Goetia, A few important questions. please help.
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 2:48 PMToo funny.Its funny how people still think the devil is some creature that has horns and bat like wings and goes around the world tempting man this is just an image they put on him and its funny to watch people mock something they do not understand.Yes the true devil is our mind
and we learn to overcome it in life as we walk down life's path.Say someone does you wrong and steals from you or something worse what do you do?Our mind wants to get even with that person but in that we have to learn self control and learn that it will be handled on its own that we do not need to get even with the other person.Its funny to see people mock something that is infact real but idiots stay blinded to it because they just can't except that hey the church just might be right.People cringe at the fact something might be right but some of the people controlling it might be wrong.Take the temptation of christ for instance.People think a devil literally came to him and tempted him and this is were the church gets most of its mishaps from not including what happened to job and such.The temptation alone we all face in life
one of them was christ was hungry infact so hungry that his human mind was tempting him to just turn the rock into bread and eat but when he said no,and walked away he was trying to teach everyone how to overcome even the mildest temptation.I can put it down like this to you
I will make you a bet adastra.SWEAR everything you have and own on the fact there is no devil and swear it to GOD in your own time that if your wrong you will begin to loose everything you have until you come to full realization that he does infact exist and slowly watch what happens if your mister no it all LOL.I dare you because is what will happen is your reality will begin to unravel and your ground will become quicksand and you will begin to sink over time.Yes the prince of darkness does exist but the greatest lie there is, is proving that you do not exist its the greatest trick of all time and people who fall trap to it are but fools in a pit they will never be able to escape from. -
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Re: New to Goetia, A few important questions. please help.
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 9:32 PMFor a person who lies all the time, youre a sorry excuse for a Christian trolling for satanists.
Try telling the truth for a change.
And stop dressing up as a wolf when youre really a sheep. -
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Re: New to Goetia, A few important questions. please help.
Fri, November 13, 2009 - 10:45 PMThink what you will all you do is criticize and understand what your blind mind wishes you too understand.I am far from christian but like i said say what you wish.When the time comes we will see who laughs in the end because I will meet you eventually mock my words I do not know you but when the time comes I will walk up to you and tell you face to face
"WHOS LAUGHING NOW"
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: New to Goetia, A few important questions. please help.
Fri, November 13, 2009 - 11:05 PMand anyways I do not criticize satanists or anyone on their path I just say whats on my mind and if people don't like it then hey its called free speech sorry but its the way it goes if you don't like it tough its life buddy get use to it does it hurt my feelings hmmmmmm nope.I may be a sheep but I'm a sheep with a bad ass rod and when its brought out wolves run and hide :) and they should will wolves play in a pin they will only get tied and burned until they exist no more we will soon see.If you wish to be a wolf and get yourself into things which you do not understand then that path is on you but don't say when the time comes I did not warn you.But I deal with people like you and all I can do is hope one day yall wake up but who am I to decide your fate its on you to choose thats free will but learn this we pay for our actions remember those words. -
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Re: New to Goetia, A few important questions. please help.
Sat, November 14, 2009 - 12:59 PM>>>I may be a sheep but I'm a sheep with a bad ass rod and when its brought out wolves run and hide :<<<
Yes, there are lots of silly sheep around who are scared shitless of anything they don't understand (mostly anything having a spiritual, artistic or philosophic dimension. They allay their fear by trumpeting what bad asses they are and hope that will scare the wolves away. It's really a shame that the wolves can still smell sheep out and dine on them when they get around to it. I find it is much more useful to learn what is really going on. I don't try to scare the wolves away, but I can avoid the places they hang out and what they themselves are afraid of. A little knowledge does more to make a wolf out of a sheep than all the empty boasting in the world.
You may have heard that, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." The question that line doesn't address is "Dangerous to whom?" And the next few lines give the remedy for the danger, "Learn more and better."
No doubt, you will feel yourself threatened by this advice, but I just say what's on my mind, and if people don't like it, then hey, it's called free speech. Sorry, but that's the way it goes. If you don't like it, it's just llfe, buddy. Clever up a little, dog, and then you won't embarrass yourself by announcing your stupidity to the world in public like that. It all sounds like a sheep going, "Woof, woof, woof!" to me.
With love under will,
Bob, Adastra,
The Wizzard of Jacksonville -
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Re: New to Goetia, A few important questions. please help.
Sat, November 14, 2009 - 2:02 PMLike I said the wolves will soon be tamed and if you choose this path then you can laugh all you want we both know who will be laughing when the time comes so laugh on it makes you look more like an idiot every time. -
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Re: New to Goetia, A few important questions. please help.
Sat, November 14, 2009 - 9:30 PM>>>laugh on it makes you look more like an idiot every time.<<<
Empty threats always make me laugh. ROFLMMFAO!
Do your worst. Show us what a brave sheep you really are.
You do realize that all your huffing and puffing don't impress anybody to whom you're nothing more than words on a monitor, don't you? Or are you really that ignorant? Your inability to spell English words correctly suggests you are.
With love under will (and mirth),
Bob, Adastra,
The Wizzard of Jacksonville -
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Re: The Hidden Work
Fri, November 20, 2009 - 2:33 AMSorry to interrupt the "contre tant" which is always a welcome distraction from the original question asked...da, da, da. ....
But seriously, I have been examining some of the source material for planetary spirits and find many contradictions and anomalies. I did find a book by E.J. Gold, a follower of Gurdjieff, called The Hidden Work. In this he lists a concise periodic table of angelic spirits:
Zodiacal Signs (12):
Depending on the source or origin numerous correspondences or attributes are given:
Aries Taurus Gemini Cancer Leo Virgo
Michael Gabriel Raphael Uriel Guriel Nuriel
Libra Scorpio Sagittarius Capricorn Aquarius Pisces
Yeschamiel Sosol Ayil Ubariel Ausim Pasiel
Months of the Year (12):
January February March April May June
Gabriel Barchiel Machidiel Asmodel Ambriel Muriel
July August September October November December
Verchiel Hamaliel Uriel Barbiel Adnachiel Anael
Zodiac Sign 1st Decanate 2nd Decanate 3rd Decanate
Aries Samael Raphael Sachiel/Anael
Taurus Anael/Michael Michael/Gabriel Cassiel
Gemini Michael/Sachiel Anael/Samael Raphael
Cancer Gabriel/Anael Samael/Michael Gabriel
Leo Raphael/Cassiel Sachiel Samael
Virgo Michael/Raphael Cassiel/Anael Anael/Michael
Libra Anael/Gabriel Cassiel Michael/Sachiel
Scorpio Samael/Pluto Sachiel/Raphael Gabriel/Anael
Sagittarius Sachiel/Raphael Samael/Gabriel Raphael/Cassiel
Capricorn Cassiel/Sachiel Anael/Samael Michael/Raphael
Aquarius Cassiel/Anael Michael Anael/Gabriel
Pisces Sachiel/Cassiel Gabriel/Sachiel Samael
Seven Olympic Spirits (Arbatel de Magia Veterum):
Planets Sun Moon Mars Mercury Jupiter Venus Saturn
Demon Och Phul Phalegh Ophiel Bethor Hagith Arathor
Spirit Rapahel Gabriel Samael Michael Sachiel Anael Cassiel
Colour Yellow Silver Red Variegated Blue Green Black
Quality Longevity Dreams Courage Knowledge Optimism Love Dedication
Days of the Week:
Days Sunday Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday
Archangels Raphael Gabriel Khamael Michael Khamael Haniel Tzaphquiel
Angels *Michael *Gabriel Samael *Raphael Sachiel Anael Cassiel
Planet Sun Moon Mars Mercury Jupiter Venus Saturn
Metal Gold Silver Iron Quicksilver Tin Copper Lead
Colour Yellow White Red Purple Blue Green Black
Terrestrial World (Square)
Angels Archangels Principalities
Moon (Gabriel) Mercury (Raphael) Venus (Anael)
Technology The Earth & Elements Oceans, Lakes & Rivers
Celestial World (Triangle)
Powers Virtues Dominions
Sun (Michael) Mars (Samael) Jupiter (Zachariel)
Atmosphere or Air Fire Organic Plants
Super-celestial World (Circle)
Thrones Cherubim (Zodiacal Sphere) Seraphim (Primum Mobile)
Saturn (Orphiel) Earth (Uriel) Stars (Ophaniel)
Animal Kingdom Perception Human Life
Days & Hours Summarised:
This is another concise table of the hourly planetary spirits developed by McGregor Mathers with the name of the hourly spirit together with an angelic spirit for the day of the week and each hour of the day:
Hour Angel Sunday Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday
1:00 Yayn Raphael Sachiel Anael Cassiel Michael Gabriel Zamael
2:00 Yanor Gabriel Zamael Raphael Sachiel Anael Cassiel Michael
3:00 Nasnia Cassiel Michael Gabriel Zamael Raphael Sachiel Anael
4:00 Salla Sachiel Anael Cassiel Michael Gabriel Zamael Raphael
5:00 Sadedali Raphael Sachiel Anael Cassiel Michael Gabriel Zamael
6:00 Thamur Michael Gabriel Zamael Raphael Sachiel Anael Cassiel
7:00 Ourer Anael Cassiel Michael Gabriel Zamael Raphael Sachiel
8:00 Thainé Raphael Sachiel Anael Cassiel Michael Gabriel Zamael
9:00 Neron Gabriel Zamael Raphael Sachiel Anael Cassiel Michael
10:00 Yayon Cassiel Michael Gabriel Zamael Raphael Sachiel Anael
11:00 Abai Sachiel Anael Cassiel Michael Gabriel Zamael Raphael
12:00 Nathalon Raphael Sachiel Anael Cassiel Michael Gabriel Zamael
13:00 Beron Michael Gabriel Zamael Raphael Sachiel Anael Cassiel
14:00 Barol Anael Cassiel Michael Gabriel Zamael Raphael Sachiel
15:00 Thanu Raphael Sachiel Anael Cassiel Michael Gabriel Zamael
16:00 Athor Gabriel Zamael Raphael Sachiel Anael Cassiel Michael
17:00 Mathon Cassiel Michael Gabriel Zamael Raphael Sachiel Anael
18:00 Rana Sachiel Anael Cassiel Michael Gabriel Zamael Raphael
19:00 Netos Zamael Raphael Sachiel Anael Cassiel Michael Gabriel
20:00 Tafrac Michael Gabriel Zamael Raphael Sachiel Anael Cassiel
21:00 Sassur Anael Cassiel Michael Gabriel Zamael Raphael Sachiel
22:00 Agla Raphael Sachiel Anael Cassiel Michael Gabriel Zamael
23:00 Ceärra Gabriel Zamael Raphael Sachiel Anael Cassiel Michael
24:00 Salam Cassiel Michael Gabriel Zamael Raphael Sachiel Anael
By comparison with other tables listed in various occult manuals it is clear that many differences and variants are evident with no clear indication given by the authors why this should be so, unless it in error or was intentionally misleading. We know of course that there was considerable rivalry between these magicians and a great deal of acrimony broke out when these individual lists were finally published by them. The occultists McGregor Mathers, A.E. Waite and Aleister Crowley all worked from the same manuscripts in the British Museum so why so many differences occur is something of a mystery.
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Re: The Hidden Work
Sat, November 28, 2009 - 1:42 PMThere is another work as well that will tie into this work.Not only peter de abano the heptameron also the sepher maphteah shelomoh
by hermann gollancz which they reprinted of the original grimoire but also a book called "Forbidden rites" by Richard Kieckhefer
also use this method its interesting but the heptameron is a copy of a much older work but this same method can be traced far back
even before the 11th century another work like what you describe is a manuscript called CLM 849 which is that forbidden rites book check it out also as you will see differences as to how the names are spelled for each hour and also the seals used I have a copy of the manuscript
on adobe reader and a link on my E.O.S page if your interested in looking at it.
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Re: The Hidden Work
Sat, November 28, 2009 - 10:02 PM>>>I have been examining some of the source material for planetary spirits and find many contradictions and anomalies.<<<
These contradictions and anomalies are more apparent than substantive. If you will keep in mind that zodiacal signs are different from months of the year, which are different from the decanates and different from the Olympic Spirits, which are different from the days of the week,which are different from the daily hours, it will be much clearer. Where angelic names are repeated in these different contexts, it seems we may consider these either as different angels with the same names or as the same angels functioning in somewhat different capacities. Or we might consider all of them as archetypes arising from the collective unconscious and appearing a bit differently to different people.
Many theories are available to choose from; for my money, it is best to choose whatever system makes sense to you and to work within that system until it seems to have played out and then switch to another and see how well it serves. You will likely come away from the practice with far more sources to draw on and you can then concentrate on combining them as seems to work best for you and experimenting on the most effective combinations.
It is also a question of how much time and effort you want to put in on exploring different systems. For myself, when I find something I like, I work it into my personal system and go as far as I can with it. Eventually, I find that something I've used in the past doesn't work as well as before and I know it's time to find other techniques to revive the efficacy of what I've been working on. It seems to follow a regular pattern of initial success and later weakening nearly to uselessness, but if I look around, I always find some new idea that adds much more power to my workings and makes the whole practice much easier. I don't know about anyone else's experiences, but it works that way for me.
>>>Sorry to interrupt the "contre tant" which is always a welcome distraction from the original question asked<<<
I must apologize. It is an awkward habit of mine that when I notice some jerk trying to impress everybody with what a big, bad ASS he is, I can't resist pointing out that if he had anything useful to say, he could drop the lame act and simply offer useful advice. This usually impresses people a lot more than vague warnings of harm that might come from ignoring the boaster's warnings of his "great power" and dangerous temperament. That's the lazy man's way to impressing the gullible and it gives the same result every time--only the truly gullible find this impressive and nobody finds it useful.
Whenever I run into these clowns, I remember the words of Donald M. Kraig about the time when he was told someone was sending curses at him. He decided to take no defensive measures at all and the result was that within about a week, he received several free books as gifts that proved very helpful and he got an unexpected check in the mail. So I don't worry about blowhards--all talk and no product.
It is laughable to see fools trying to impress people for all the wrong reasons. Well, they have made their bed of live coals and they will have to lie in it.
With love under will,
Bob, Adastra,
The Wizzard of Jacksonville
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Re: The Hidden Work
Sun, November 29, 2009 - 4:58 AMOK BoB-aDASTra megaGOBulos, no worries dude, still it's easy to get drawn into verbal conflicts with these protagonists. I noticed some time ago when I got into a discussion with some Mormons, I gradually got sucked into their way of thinking. Better sometimes perhaps to pretend to "know" nothing?
[ignorance is BLISS] -
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Re: The Hidden Work
Sun, November 29, 2009 - 10:06 PM>>>I noticed some time ago when I got into a discussion with some Mormons, I gradually got sucked into their way of thinking<<<
But it is often more fun to know enough to recognize when someone laying down "the law" is full of shit. I had a neat encounter with Mormons once. I was living in Wisconsin at the time, helping to run a fellowship in connection with an outreach program for a Bible study ministry. One day, I was at home alone, with my roommates out running errands of their own, when someone knocked at the door. It turned out to be Mary Ann, a young woman who was a regular at our fellowship meetings. She seemed to be in a rush and asked me where to find a Bible belonging to Bill, one of my roommates. He was visiting her and had asked her to go and get his Bible, because he needed it right then. When I asked what the problem was, she answered, "Mormons!" So I asked if I could come over and she said that this would be good. She jumped on her bicycle and rushed off. I followed at the slower pace of a pedestrian and found her apartment had been "invaded" by a pair of Mormon missionaries.
When I got there, Bill, looked up and said to the Mormons, "Good, here's our Greek and Hebrew scholar. He can answer your question." Okay, I don't know where he got the idea that I was a scholar in these two languages; all I really knew was how to use a few standard reference books, but I was wondering what was up. So I sat down and said, "Sorry, what is this about?"
The missionaries started explaining about a verse in the book of Ezekiel in which the prophet describes how God told him to take two sticks and write on them, identifying one as the stick of Judah and one as the stick of Joseph. (Eze. 37:16). Then he was to hold them together in one hand and prophesy that God would reunite Israel and Judea, just as the two sticks were brought together. Now, I could see where this was going and when they next said that these two sticks were really scrolls and the word in Hebrew meant "scrolls", I knew that the next step was to claim that these two "scrolls" stood for the Bible and the Book of Mormon and proved that we needed both to know God fully. So, there I raised my hand and told them that my Bible (which I had open by then) used the word "stick" and said nothing about scrolls in that place. They insisted that the correct translation should be "scrolls."
So, I asked how they knew that. They looked a bit confused at the question, so I added, "I mean did someone tell you that, or did you look it up for yourselves?" They agreed that they personally had looked up the information for themselves. I asked them, "Where did you look it up?" They seemed even more confused at this question, so I continued, "I mean, did you use a concordance or some other reference book?" Oh, yes, they had used a concordinance (sic), they replied.
So I continued with, "Gee, I wish I had a concordance here myself so I could check that. Not that I doubt what you say, but it would sure be nice to check for myself. But unfortunately, I didn't bring a concordance, so. . ." And there, Mary Ann stood up and said, "I'll go and get one." So we waited while she went back to our apartment and brought back my concordance. She seemed eager to get a lot of use from her bicycle. I took tha book and looked up the word, "stick" and announced that the word in Hebrew was "etz" and that "stick" was the only translation given. Then I added that the first use of "etz" in scripture spoke of gathering etzim to use as firewood. I mentioned that I thought it unlikely that anyone would use scrolls for firewood. One of the Mormons then asked if he could look at that "big book." He skimmed through several pages in obvious confusion and asked, "How do you use this thing? What is this anyway?"
Your everhelpful wizzard replied, "That's a concordance. You know, like the one you used to do your research." And the older missionary who seemed to be the one in charge told his partner, "You remember, we saw one of those over at Bishop so and so's house." With that settled, the pair decided that it was getting late in the day and they had somewhere else to be soon, They left--rapidly, I thought. Mary Ann was jubilant. "Did you see that?" she asked. "Can you believe they sat right there on my sofa and LIED through their teeth.?" I thought I was never going to get them to leave. Thank you. That was FUN!"
Yes, it's always fun to let annoying people tie themselves in knots trying to back up a fiction that has been proven a fiction beyond any reasonable doubt. Perhaps it is ungenerous of me, but I have never balked at giving a liar enough rope to hang himself. And I always get a chuckle out of that particular, peculiar story. Thanks for letting me share it.
And I have nothing against Mormons in particular. I have known Mormons whom I have considered friends. I find their religion absurd., of course--but then I find all religions absurd. And I find none of them that have anything to do with what I recognize as God. The Mormons are no more absurd than any others. But some of their practices make them easy targets for lampoons. Just like most churches.
With love under will,
Bob, Adastra,
The Wizzard of Jacksonville
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Re: New to Goetia, A few important questions. please help.
Sun, November 29, 2009 - 4:54 PMDaemons are Greek for spirits, guardians of sorts. I like to view it in that context myself. I worked with a Goetia spirit years ago and he has protected me quite well. I'll have to go look at my journals to see who I worked with.
Haven't felt the need to do it again, until now.
Peace,
RA
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Re: New to Goetia, A few important questions. please help.
Tue, December 22, 2009 - 5:11 PMResearch and experience implies the conjuration is both internal and external. Those who physically see it have good visualization skills or were smart and took notes from Poke Runyon rather interesting and diverse perspective. The key to it is in the use of the Magick Mirror during ritual. Go to youtube and look up Poke Runyon or Goetia Magick I and watch all seven videos. I think that'll provide some great insight for you.
Brett
